amarie24: (Default)
[personal profile] amarie24
OMG.

So, like, Silver & Wingedbeast have started a very, very long conversation over at my last ATLA post ("On Rape and Empathy"). They've mostly started talking about Mako both as a character and as his position as a potential polyshipper with Korra & Asami.

It's...amazing. I usually don't get such long conversations like that in my comments! Hah! And I've had other people inbox me about LoK, too. So...

Here's my first-ever open thread for you guys. I know it's late, as the finale was quite some time ago. I also know that I'm not the best person to participate myself, as I stopped watching in the middle of Book 2 (I know, but the bullshit was getting to be staggering for me). But! I know a lot of my readers have finished watching LoK and have a lot of thoughts on it. And you guys have a lot of thoughts on ATLA, and it's okay to share those too!

...But do not scorn Zuko's hair. I will destroy you with my homemade pancakes & bacon. I mean it. I got my mother addicted to that kind of breakfast and I'll do it to you through a computer screen. No one touches Zuko's glorious hair. For the record, his Book 2 hair was my favorite. Just a little on the shaggy side, with that smexxy spikiness in the front. Flame-o, hawtman.

Other than that, please mind your trigger warnings, be nice, be safe, have fun and happy January to one and to all! :D :D


--Amarie

Date: 2015-01-10 02:59 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
Okay, for my part in the LoK thread, I'll start off a couple topics.

1. Bolin is the spiritual successor of Aang. This is not to say Korra isn't awesome, she is. But, Bolin, who is too often called Sokka Light, in the last two seasons showed far more Aanglike capacity to keep on caring despite heavy problems.

2. The second season is such a letdown because Nickelodeon gave Bryke the first season with the claim that it was only going to be one season (part of why they had to close the storylines so definitively), then surprised them with the second.

So, I'm all for Silver's idea of giving guaranteed two season runs (with early decisions to assess a third season), to give shows a good chance at building up an audience, rather than needing to be an instant hit.

Date: 2015-01-10 05:27 pm (UTC)
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
I can get on board with Bolin being spiritual successor. Which is a bit interesting, considering Korra is supposed to be the actual spiritual successor to Aang.

I also think Bolin gets the reputation of being Sokka-lite because he's trying very hard to be like his brother, who is apparently effortlessly a ladies man, and it doesn't really work out for him. Once he's confident enough to be himself (which lava-bending does for him), then he and Opal start having a good relationship.

Date: 2015-01-10 05:38 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
She's the positional successor. She has the power and, therefore, the political position and the responsibilities. I'm not taking away from what she did at all. And, if we include the creation of the Republic in Aang's column, we can argue about whether she accomplished more or Aang did.

Bolin has the temperament of Aang.

Date: 2015-01-10 06:17 pm (UTC)
silveradept: A squidlet (a miniature attempt to clone an Old One), from the comic User Friendly (Squidlet)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
I meant more in the irony sense, since Korra is supposed to be Aang's reincarnation, rather than with what she did. Korra seems better-linked to Kiyoshi, rather than Aang. (And, for that matter, Toph, even though it's a Beifong trait to be grumpy at kids on principle.) Korra lacks Aang's reticence to be the Avatar, among other things.

Bolin really is more Aang than Korra will be. (Much to Tenzin's...?)

Date: 2015-01-10 06:27 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
It's questionable whether Korra is actually Aang's reincarnation.

I mean, the Avatar doesn't actually seem to be the previous Avatar reborn, because they have their completely separate emotions and thoughts that can advise a current Avatar but not be shared by a current Avatar.

Date: 2015-01-12 04:03 am (UTC)
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
That's true, although it's not completely said how Rava changes from person to person. But since they refer it as "past lives", it makes things seem like a reincarnation of some sort. It's just not always clear what's going on there.

Date: 2015-01-12 04:18 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
I think it works best if we see each Avatar as a separate soul/person/whatever. Otherwise, you have the whole issue of reincarnation either requiring that the Avatar's significant other being an essential reincarnation... or Aang cheating on Katara with Asami through Korra... which is...

So, I'm going to go ahead and think of them as separate souls... with an extra connection through Rava. I won't go into too much detail as to how Avatarworld afterlives exist (or if they exist) and just hope it's all... well at least kinda fair.

Date: 2015-01-13 02:19 am (UTC)
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
I hope it's fair, too. Might be that many of the previous Avatars make their way to the spirit realms, and live an Iroh-like afterlife. That seems at least a little fair.

Date: 2015-01-13 02:29 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
I'm choosing to believe that there's a very far spirit-world in which the afterlives happen and that people can make their way to the closer spirit world for dealings with their loved ones.

In that thinking, Iroh would have died, but still made his way back, because Zuko still needs looking after... and I just gave myself a lump in the throat thinking of that.

Future scene, Zuko's lived his long life and passed on, he eventually meets up with his uncle and can sit at tea as a young child, and even later on introduce Iroh to his wife.

Date: 2015-01-13 03:28 am (UTC)
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
That would be a touching scene to have somewhere. And reuniting all over the place for those old enough to have been part of the original series.

Date: 2015-01-13 03:34 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
And, Ozai's there, just being ignored by everybody.

Date: 2015-01-10 04:51 pm (UTC)
silveradept: A head shot of Firefox-ko, a kitsune representation of Mozilla's browser, with a stern, taking-no-crap look on her face. (Firefox-ko)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
I think the decision to do a filler episode in that middle of Season 4 has to have a really good reason...that I'm not aware of, but it was a sore thumb. Maybe it's a gentle reminder that our perception of reality is always different than reality. Bolin is actually the one closest to reality in his description, but he gets overridden by Verrick telling the movie version, which is apparently the better one, even though it had no reality in it. I think that's a pretty solid Take That at, say, a Hollywood movie adaptation of AtLA that doesn't actually exist, but was brought into our reality by a time crash.

Date: 2015-01-10 05:19 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
It was a bottle show, because Nick cut some funding and they had to do the best they could.

In short, it's a good example of what happens when you have excellent creators and the management interferes in a bad way.

Date: 2015-01-10 05:31 pm (UTC)
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
Ah, yes, Executive Meddling. That said, I did get one good thing out of it - Mako telling his story is the basis for why I think he'd do best in a poly triad with both Korra and Asami - he clearly still loves both of them, and it was his inability to choose that caused problems.

Date: 2015-01-10 05:42 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
Eh... I actually agree with the clip show on that. He was too busy trying not to disappoint anybody that he disappointed everybody. And, really... still too bland. What's more, letting them be friends, close friends, is good by me. But, before Mako really gets to be... well... anything, he needs some character development.

As stated in the other post, though, I think the writers just never thought that Mako needed to develop. That left him being... Standard Issue Heroic Personality. Put him in an 80s cartoon. In Avatarworld, he has some lessons to learn.

Date: 2015-01-10 06:10 pm (UTC)
silveradept: A cartoon-stylized picture of Gamera, the giant turtle, in a fighting pose, with Japanese characters. (Gamera!)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
Yeah - Mako's development could be a casualty of not knowing you had enough time beforehand. Everyone else had stories to keep telling and he just wasn't set up that way.

It might also work best for Korra and Asami if they both agree that Mako is their toy to share so that nobody has to get jealous. The friendship is more important.

Date: 2015-01-10 06:25 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
Mako being their toy is... yeah about as much as he can bring to a relationship at the moment.

If we're going to push for a poly-relationship, let it be Bolin. He has something to bring to the relationship, namely his energy and his constant readiness to put his heart on the line. That isn't limited to romantic elements, he cares, he cares hard, and he has an ability to push other people to be better through that. Heck, he managed to get Verrick to be less selfish.

And, that's if they really think that their relationship could use a third member. This isn't some Anita Blake world where being bisexual means you *have* to have at least one of each.

Date: 2015-01-11 03:09 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
Topic of discussion.

Considering that the topic really hasn't come up in the show, making either answer possible, should the story reflect Korra and Asami dealing with anti-gay bigotry or not?

I can see it either way, especially given that Avatarworld seems to be East Asian culture without European influences. But, do we prefer the fantasy of the Avatar bringing change to the world by forcing same-sex relationships into the forefront and fighting to end this bigotry or do we prefer a fantasy where this just wasn't an issue to begin with?

Date: 2015-01-13 02:15 am (UTC)
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
Don't know. Suspect the Water Tribe might have issue with it, based on Sokka at a young age, but Korra's not exactly going home any time soon.

I think the rest of the world might have a fierce debate, though, because Korra and Asami are very public figures and it would be all the excuse needed for someone to try and push their agenda. Book Five might end up being about takeovers in Future Industries and political calls for the other world leaders to rein Korra in from flaunting herself. (Tenzin and Fire Lord Izumi give precisely zero fucks about it, Wu waffles with the wind, and maybe Raikou isn't in favor of it, but he knows better than to openly say it, so nothing happens.)

Date: 2015-01-13 02:25 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
If it's an issue, dealing in broad nationality strokes, I'd actually suspect the Earth Kingdom and the Fire Nation to have the hardest issues (based on their history, mind). The Water Tribes, being adaptive by nature and being not too far removed from arranged marriages, would probably have some issue. The Air Nomads/Acolytes would be the nation without an issue.

That said, that's if there's an issue of anti-gay bigotry in Avatarworld. It's just as possible that there isn't one at all, based on what we've seen and that they're analogs for cultures that didn't originate that specific bigotry themselves.

Date: 2015-01-13 03:37 am (UTC)
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
Entirely true. There may be no issues at all with it.

Date: 2015-01-13 03:39 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
There's the fantasy idea of a world where that's just not an issue we have to fight.

Then, there's the fantasy of Avatar-world gay-pride parades in which the Avatar and a leading business woman lead the chant of "We're here. We're queer. You gotta deal with it!"

Date: 2015-01-14 07:00 am (UTC)
silveradept: A star of David (black lightning bolt over red, blue, and purple), surrounded by a circle of Elvish (M-Div Logo)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
With supportive allies like the chief of police for Republic City, the leader of the Air Nation, and Nuktuk on their side. It certainly seems like the campaign would be easier.

Date: 2015-01-14 07:52 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wingedbeast
I'd go ahead and assume that all of the Korra's Team Avatar would be on the side of gay rights. If the door hadn't been slammed shut so hard on Tarloc, he could have been the opposition.

And, it would all end in a massive bending battle and marriage equality.

Date: 2015-01-14 09:10 pm (UTC)
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
That's a winning plot there. If only it could have been done as an animated show broadcast on a major network or something.

Re: Off topic!

Date: 2015-02-05 08:29 am (UTC)
lonespark: Cassidy from "Far Beyond the Stars" (Default)
From: [personal profile] lonespark
Glad you like.

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