Preview of the posts I'm going to be writing about it, note that it won't be one post per point below
1 The movie we were promised at the end of the previous Captain America was Steve and Sam on a road trip to find Bucky with possible help from Natasha. This is especially sensible because Sam's job and vocation is helping soldiers who have had traumatic experiences which Bucky very much is. Where the fuck is that movie?
2 The final fight of this movie, which the villain's entire plan leads up to, hinges on Tony being an asshole, but that doesn't mean that Tony needed to have a huge role in the movie. He could have spent the movie following newly surfaced clues on his parents murder. Cut to him for like a minute at most as he gets one step closer and then, at the very end, his quest leads him to the same spot as Steve and Bucky.
3 This was two movies (which is an improvement over the last Captain America movie when they tried to cram in like nine) and neither of them was really a Captain America movie. The Avengers splitting up over the Fictional Country Accords is clearly an Avengers movie. Bucky being framed bringing the two sides of the split into conflict is actually the backdrop for a Black Panther movie in which T'Challa grows as a character and he first steps foot outside of Wakanda as the Black Panther.
4 Apparently only villains care about natives. Tony ends up thinking they need oversight because of an American in Sokovia, the oversight actually becomes a thing because of Wakandans in Nigeria. No one on the good side gave a crap about the Sokovians or the Nigerians. That seems to be the message.
5 This should have been morally complex. The leader of the accord side --who should have been Maria Hill, not Tony-- should have made the argument that cops without oversight are dangerous and scary things and justice requires people who can keep the enforcers in line. This is true and important because, for fuck's sake, the cops are out of control and the Avengers are cops on a grand scale. Steve should have made the "Yeah, but.." argument which he kind of did with "They could order us to do bad things" (see Captain America II in which the "good" guys and the bad guys both agree that a giant surveillance and assassination system is wonderful, but disagree on who should pick the targets) and "They could order us not to do good things" which, if they'd waited to get an "Ok" for Sokovia the first time then the [worse Nazis than the Nazis] would rule the world and if they'd waited the second time then the human race would be extinct.
In either case having to go through a normal chain of command would have ended life as we know it and possibly life in general. That's what superhero movies are about for fuck's sake. If the police were up to the task then Peter Parker could focus on his school work. If the regular allies were up to the task then Captain America wouldn't have been needed. Super-villains exist because without them superheroes would be dangerous vigilantes but with them they're necessary. They become even more necessary when the powers that be aren't outmatched but instead actively evil.
And on that note:
6 Doctor Doom. Marvel doesn't have the movie rights to The Fantastic Four so they can't use Doctor Doom in spite of him being their character, but things would have worked so much better if Steve could have just said, "Latveria." pause because that should be enough. Continuation for those who don't understand, "They'll never approve us intervening, but if we don't then Doctor Doom will be unstoppable before he sets foot into our jurisdiction." Or, failing that:
7 "117 countries." How many of those countries have committed genocide? How many of them have stood by and let genocide happen? There's Steve's "Order us to do bad things; order us not to do good things," argument. Hell, Steve may be Captain America, but his wartime service could have caused him to come into direct contact with the 442nd Infantry Regiment who might have mentioned what the US was doing to their families back home (and had been doing to them before they were allowed to join up.)
8 Bucky wasn't just framed; he was framed really badly. The Winter Solider doesn't blow shit up. He shoots people, he chokes people, he fights people one on one, but a car bomb? No. Before the previous Captain America movie no one, save Natasha, seriously believed he existed and that's simply not possible if he's the sort to do things as open as blowing up a UN summit.
Everyone should have known he was innocent with the possible exception of T'Challa who had very good reason to have less than perfect judgement right then.
In fact, the movie works best if the villain and the Accords side are working together. How did someone who's son was in the empty building Tony collapsed in Sakovia get alone time with Tony to tell Tony about her son when there's an entire crowd of people who know more about the building who would like to see him just as much? Why push the story that an enhanced human (Bucky) is responsible when the evidence is crap?
Because both the people behind the accords and the nominal villain want to bring down the Avengers. Ross wants them imprisoned (chasing down exceptional individuals is kind of his thing), Zemo wants them dead, but the early stages of both goals are identical and it's probable that neither side talked about their endgame.
9 Can I go on about how morally unbalanced this is?
Tony: I've come to realize that I can't be trusted not to do X, therefore there should be a law against X. All who oppose me in this endeavor are moral degenerates. If you'll excuse me I have to make sure that Vision knows Wanda is my slave, not my guest, and then I'm going to recruit a child soldier by threatening to out him to his mother-figure. This will involve me repeatedly pulling what he wants kept in the closet out of the closet so that there's no way you can miss the overtones.
Vision: I make sure Mr. Stark's slaves don't leave the property unless he allows them to. I see no moral problem with this.
Rhodey: I'm just following orders. (He's clearly the moral heart of the team since ... yeah.)
Natasha: I actually came out and said that I don't want to be on this side. The only reason I'm here is because "Team Evil" needs a token female character.
Peter: Look, I don't want to know who's right and who's wrong. I'm being blackmailed by a creepy guy who seems to want to have sex with the woman who raised me. I actually gave a speech in which I said that morally I agree with everything the other side stands for.
T'Challa: I'm here to murder someone, but don't worry, this is my pseudo-origin story so I'll learn to be a better person by the end of it and not murder the person who killed my father. My initial position on the Accords is that they should apply to others but as soon as I've got a vendetta, screw everything they say. That said, remember that I grow and change unlike the other people on this team.
While on the other side we have: Steve: This will seriously harm our ability to do good things and YOU'RE TRYING TO KILL AN INNOCENT MAN. Also, no lawyer? What happened to due process?
Sam: I'm with Steve on this, every part of what he just said.
Wanda: I'm a human being, not an object. I saw Fury Road, damn it.
Clint: Wanda's a human being, not an object.
Scott: Is there any coffee? What day is it?
Not saying that Cap's team is composed of angels, but there's a clear right side here. Not the least of which because this whole thing is being overseen by...
10 "Ross" is a name that we might associate with, "Why the fuck isn't she in this movie?" but in the case of Civil War it's the other Ross. Her dad. The villain. Bruce/Hulk's villain. A movie about Ross interring enhanced people ought to be Bruce/Hulk's movie.
11 You know why this fucked up movie exists? After Iron Man III, a movie with so many good bits that it made the crap the movie was primarily composed of hurt even more than if it had just been only bad, RDJ wasn't contracted to do anything else but the remaining Avengers story (which will be split in half) and the people running the MCU wanted him in another movie because he draws bigger numbers in the US. Not that his movies make more money overall, it's just in the US where there's a notable difference.
So they wrote a movie that would so depend upon Tony and Iron Man that they could go to RDJ and say, "We've got this movie that we want to make --script's done, we're scouting locations-- but it will only work if you're in it. *puppy dog pout* Please?
They weren't even trying to make a good movie. They were trying to create a thing that required RDJ.
12 Tony's position basically boils down to: Hey, you know what? I've realized that I've been wrong all these years. But now that I've realized it I'm right and you're wrong. Everyone still has to do what I say.
He's the guy who always thinks he's right. Every time he realizes he was wrong before then ... hey, that just makes him even more right now because he's righter than he was back then.
13 You put Bucky, a traumatized soldier, and Sam, someone who works with traumatized solider, together and didn't make any use of that? You put Bucky, someone who had is his mind fucked with, on the same side as Wanda, someone who can do impossible things with minds, and didn't have her at least try to help?
14 Vision can pick up the hammer of Thor because he's totally worthy, but he doesn't see the problem with "It's fine for you to leave to do work for us, but you're not actually a free person. You're our captive here. Deal with it"?
15 There are three black superheroes in this movie. They're all male.
In fact, Given that Wanda's been whitewashed ... is it impossible for to be a minority and a female in the hero biz?
---
Proposed better way:
Captain America 2 had a different name because Bucky was barely in that movie and the movie wouldn't have changed much if you took him out.
Third CA movie is Captain America: The Winter Soldier. Steve and Sam go out to find Bucky.
In Avengers: Civil War, the team fractures over the question of the Sokovia accords. Steve leads one faction, Hill leads the other. While they fight the movie ends with all of them teaming up to free the captured members of the Steve-side from Ross' secret prison where the inmates have no rights because whatever your position on superhero oversight, prisons with no human rights are bullshit.
The Black Panther -- T'Challa gets drawn into the middle of this fucked up feud when Bucky is framed for murdering his father. The movie has the two sides of the Avengers fighting each other again because of the flashpoint that is Bucky, but that's the backdrop for T'Challa's story.
Future movies: X years ago a super hero team was sent to prison for a crime they didn't commit. These people promptly escaped from maximum security prison. Today, still wanted by the government, they ... yeah, I'm not going to be able to work in the entire the A-Team opening monologue, but it seemed to fit.
Important point is this: future movies follow Captain America, Falcon, Black Widow (because she ought to be on that side), the Winter Soldier, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Antman (individually, and in groups) as outlaw heroes.
Oh, hello there, Chris! It's such a pleasure to see you here!
I'm just giving a pre-comment because I see you wrote a whole lot and I want to let you know that I will thoroughly respond to it soon. It's just that as of right now, I am struggling with the Migraine Wars and the Exhaustion Wars for several days straight and so I'm not exactly up to par to do anything but play Sims.
But I'll be back soon and will respond soon! Thanks again for the ultra-long comment and see you soon! :D
Okay, now I’m good! Thanks, Chris and here we go! I’m going point-by-point: 1. Yes, where the fuck was the movie that was a direct (or as direct as possible) sequel to Captain America: The Winter Soldier?! Although one thing: there’s an ugly, anti-black racist trend in fandom to make Sam the in-home therapist in the flavor of him being the Magical Negro that always takes care of the white characters and it’s…pretty ugly.
Then, you also have to put it into perspective: Bucky’s trauma consists of seventy years of torture, brainwashing, being forced to do things that he doesn’t want to do, and more torture. He is a man that has PTSD and memory problems out the wazoo and there are quite possibly a dozen or so trigger words still in his head.
Sam Wilson is a good, honorable man brimming with compassion and insightfulness and most-certainly he will eventually like and befriend Bucky, just like in the comics. But Sam Wilson is also, in the MCU, simply a VA counselor that helps your average Iraq, Afghanistan, and possibly, every now and then, the average Vietnam veteran. Bucky’s trauma and the needs and particularities that it entails…are way, way out of Sam’s league. And on top of that, you have the issue of boundaries when it comes to therapists/counselors not being their personal friends’ therapists/counselors.
But! I do think that there can be something for Sam helping to direct Bucky to someone who can help him. I do think that you can show Sam holding Bucky’s hand as they search for a good, suitable doctor that can help Bucky. Yep, yep.
2. Yeah, the whole of Tony’s presence in this fucking movie and the rest of this universe for that matter hinge on him acting a fool and an asshole. I personally still can’t get past the question of…what is Tony even doing here? Outside of, say, providing funds for the very best lawyers for Bucky off-screen? Like, the motivation for that ending fight scene felt beyond forced and contrived. I’ve never been nor will I ever be for the narrative of Bucky having been the one to kill Tony’s parents because it doesn’t make sense and, even more, because it runs the great risk of centralizing Tony in what should be Bucky’s story.
I mean, movie!Tony Stark has existed since 2008; the very first Iron Man movie came out in 2008. It is 2016 now and that means it has been a whopping eight years since Tony’s debut. It wasn’t really until the second Iron Man film where we saw Tony…supposedly get some closure from his father (…that little video where Howard says that Tony “is my greatest creation”…and yes, I have negative feelz about that in & of itself), and that should’ve been that. And of course, we hear and see next to nothing about his mother.
So now, over eight years later, if we, the audience, were supposed to care so much about Tony’s parents and believe that he had such a warm, close relationship with them as to become unhinged upon realizing they were murdered by Bucky, then it’s far too late by now. I mean, in the first ten minutes of the movie? We watched his mother kiss him goodbye…like she almost never kisses him, much less shows any kind of casual affection for him at all.
And yes, again, I’m still stuck at Tony, why in the fresh fuck are you even here in this movie?!
It didn’t work. It doesn’t work.
3. Ehhh? You felt Captain America: The Winter Soldier tried to cram in about nine movies? I actually love CATWS and I’m deeply curious about your interpretation of that. Would you care to elaborate? :O
4. …Yeah, I…kinda got a lot to say about that, too. But you just condensed it: apparently only villains care about natives. Huh.
5. This movie should’ve been morally complex for what it was, yes. But I was telling WingedBeast and a few other friends: A Civil War movie never should’ve happened in the first place. The Civil War event in the comics is one of those highly infamous events and for good reasons-the characterizations are terrible (especially if you love and are interested in Tony Stark (who acts like a fucking fascist the whole time) and Steve Rogers (who acts like a fucking anarchist the whole time)), the basic handling of the question of oversight, responsibility, etc. is horrifically not well-done. And it’s just in general a really, really bad comic book event.
The only moral complexity in this movie that I and a whole lot of other Marvel fans cared to see was the moral complexity of the [beginnings of] The Winter Soldier Trials. Prove to us, within the context of the movies, that Bucky Barnes is not an evil man, but the longest-serving POW ever known. Prove to us, also, that Bucky Barnes can and will step on the path of being worthy of the shield of Captain America. Prove to us that you can balance Bucky’s crushing guilt with the righteous anger and grief of his victims and their families.
Prove all of that to us. Show all of that to us. That’s what the fuck we wanted. And, again, Tony Stark should have absolutely nothing to do with that outside of providing the very best lawyers for Bucky.
6. Ohhh, that would’ve worked! And I forgot that Marvel doesn’t have the rights to Fantastic 4 and so they don’t have the right to Doctor Doom. Huh. :O
7. True that. Preach. All of the countries that either had a direct hand in genocide or just stood by and let it happen…and all of the times that genocide still goes on to this very day.
Also, as far as Steve’s wartime service during WWII as Captain America? That reminds me of one thing that I really, really, really do not like about CATWS: one of the basic premises of that movie as far as Steve’s character is that it’s no longer easy for him to figure out what to do, what’s right, what direction to follow because what’s right and what’s wrong is so blurry. Who to trust and who not to trust is not clear-cut and it’s, in fact, quite dangerous to slip and trust the wrong person and/or mistrust someone that actually can be trusted.
This gives the ugly, unfortunate implication that it was simple for Steve to be Captain America…back in the 40s. And that’s…one on part, that shouldn’t be Steve Rogers as a character and on another part, that’s totally a disgustingly, fetishizing, white-washing, privileged view of the past. The 1940s (and the 30s, and the 20s…) was fucking ugly. You still had lynchings of African Americans. Segregation. Japanese internment camps. Homophobic hate crimes. Anti-Semitism (oh, hai thar, Greatest Country In The World callously denying whole boatloads of European Jewish refugees!). The list goes on and on and on.
So for Steve…it should’ve been difficult and blurry to be Captain America from the very beginning. His second movie shouldn’t have been the first time he really, really started questioning things, really started feeling deeply discomfited and resentful of things. No, just...god, no.
8. This. This. That, and that. Yeah.
Although, I will say about the mother cornering Tony after Tony handing out all of those Wealthy Affluent White Man Guilt College Grants? The mother was black and one of the ugly things about this movie that I haven’t seen called out elsewhere is the egregious use of black bodies to prop up the white character’s guilt. It’s not just that black mother’s black child dying in that building. It’s also how Wanda accidentally blows up a building in Lagos…full of black people. And there’s a shot or two of a close-up of a dead black person, their eyes staring endlessly at the camera and it’s just…
Stop using the pain and death of black people to prop up and propel the stories of your white characters, Hollywood. Stop it.
9. OMFG!!!! Chris, I have absolutely loved your dialogue rewrites/re-imaginings ever since the olden days when we would talk about Twilight in Ana’s comments sections! They have always made me laugh out loud, if not put a bright, bright smile on my face for the rest of the day. And on top of being hilarious, they also wonderfully, dryly prove the point of how the source material is wildly problematic. I just love it. I do. –heart eyes & chin hands-
And this one just made me laugh out loud so, so much! Yes, yes, yes to it!!
10. Oh yes: Dr. Betty Ross has been written out of the movie universe entirely. She’s a white woman love interest that doesn’t interest me all that much just for that reason alone, but it’s quite infuriating because she could bring so, so much to the plots.
And you think Ross is a villain, too?! I always got the impression that the movies and, perhaps, the comics, wanted him to be portrayed and interpreted as some kind of morally-grey figure, a desperate man with a whole lot of power that’s just trying to do the right thing by any means necessary. Like, the source material is trying to sell us a character that’s heavy on the Machiavellian, but can somehow still be sympathized with. But of course, it does not work for me, you, and a whole lot of the rest of the audience.
I will say that for myself, personally? I very, very, very much always preferred the General Ross from the 2003 Hulk movie, with Eric Bana and Jennifer Connelly. I haven’t re-watched it in a good minute, but I felt that that version of General Ross actually, truly, deeply loved and cared for his daughter. I loved the flashback of child!Betty eating ice cream with her father in a diner, though they’re interrupted by military officials. I love that he demands of Betty, “What do you want me to do?!” and the narrative allows Betty to yell back, “I want you to help [Bruce]!” I love that, at the end, Ross truly apologizes to Betty for everything and, though I don’t remember Betty’s exact response, it sounded like she wasn’t quite ready to forgive him, much less start rebuilding their relationship.
Just about none of that complex pain was shown in the 2008 reboot with the new General Ross and Betty. Ross was and still is just a power-hungry, callous, reckless asshole that truly doesn’t care about hurting and/or killing even his own daughter to get unfettered access to Bruce Banner’s body. I re-watched the 2008 reboot a few weeks ago and still to this day, I can’t sense that Ross truly loves his daughter or at least, truly wants to rekindle some kind of relationship with her where she understands and trusts him. It’s disgusting.
Do you have any thoughts on that?
11. Speaking of the shitty Iron Man 3? My favorite part? When Happy got fatally injured because of the villains and Tony was angry? He went and outed his personal home address in a challenge to those villains on an international platform and he did it solely out of anger…which is a hallmark character trait of movie!Tony Stark. He gets angry, he lashes out without a care for how this will hurt other people.
And then of course, a certain lady named Pepper lives in that house, too. He comes home after issuing that challenge, she drops their bags in front of him and states that they are going to bounce and bounce yesterday. And then he tells her, “I can’t protect you out there!”
…But you can protect here in the house of which you just gave away your address to. Because you’re angry. Because that’s logical. Because that’s smart. Because you’re a genius. Hahaha…hah…hah.
Also, I know a lot of people are saying that it was the MCU guys that came to RDJ to centralize him in Captain America’s movie? But I personally call bullshit-RDJ is a fucking notorious contract shark. I bet he totally pushed and shoved his sorry ass all the way to the front yet again for sure.
12. Yep. Exactly. Like…how many times does the MCU want us to watch this wealthy, powerful white man that is supposedly a genius…realize that he’s wrong and then go to absurd, destructive lengths to correct that wrong and end up actually making a bigger mess than before? If you watch all of the movies he’s been in, you can see just how formulaic it is (I was talking about this with Geyahi in another comment thread on this post) and it’s nothing but status quo. I mean, if I want to watch MCU!Tony Stark do this over and over again, I’d just turn on the news.
13. I reiterate my point on #1. :D
14. …Aww shit, I forgot that Vision can apparently lift the hammer! Excellent point!!!
15. Psst…Chris. Doncha know that we black women don’t actually exist? It’s always either men of color or white women and so, yes indeed, it is impossible for a character to be both of color and a woman. Why, you’re talking to a mystical unicorn right now. ;)
Ohhh, I very, very much enjoy your better proposal!
And no, you didn’t write too much at all! Again, I thank you so much for dropping in to comment, Chris! Thank you, thank you! :D
I have almost no time right now, but I'll respond to at least one thing, its kind of easy since I just have to search for the last time I mentioned it in passing:
3. Ehhh? You felt Captain America: The Winter Soldier tried to cram in about nine movies? I actually love CATWS and I’m deeply curious about your interpretation of that. Would you care to elaborate? :O
You could take Bucky out of the movie with his name on it without changing much of anything that happens in the movie. On the other hand, his return should be enough to be a movie in itself. So that's one movie right there. The one the title promises but doesn't really deliver:
The Winter Solider shows up, everyone thinks Steve and Natasha are loopy for believing this and thus doesn't provide them with aid, and entire movie just about dealing with brainwashed Bucky.
Shield (not just the Hydra infiltrators) had gone way too far. Their evil plot needed to be stopped. Putting Hydra into the equation is a complication that a movie isn't long enough to deal with. Just have the horrible project (was it called "Project Insight" or something?) and our heroes rebelling to stop it.
Two movies.
An attempted coup against Nick Fury, which would make sense in the wake of the previous, could be a movie in itself. More has been made with less. And it would be interesting because the coupsters wouldn't be wrong that Fury had fucked up, but a violent coup usually isn't the way to go about it.
Hydra still existing, if they were going to run with that, should have been centered as something to deal with as opposed to, "We have to stop this horrible thing, and Robert Redford works for Hydra but why should we care since the non-Hydra people approved of this plan too?" So focus on that and we're at, I think, four now.
Zola's preserved consciousness was there for an exposition dump when it honestly deserves more and different. In the comics I don't know, but in the MCU Zola was, at best, disinterested in Hydra. He just wanted a place where he could conduct reality-bending science-advancing experiments, perhaps in ways that violated all human rights.
If you're going to have him then he should be the main villain of a non-Hydra plot that involves pushing the boundaries of science-magic and trampling the boundaries of ethics with the heroes unable to locate the villain behind everything for most of the movie because he's a net-ghost.
Next, the Hydra "algorithm" was Big Brother in the internet age an honestly probably deserved an entire multiple season TV series where people are fighting against, basically, the internet personified that happens to hold to Nazi ideals. Think Ultron without the the idiot ball, emotional instability, or desire to have a body.
This is separate from a Hydra movie itself because the "algorithm" presents a wholly different threat than human infiltrators.
Shield at war with itself apart from and beside the revelation of Hydra still existing (which is as much political as face punching) could have carried an entire series of movies. It got, basically, one scene in a control room.
And, no, that doesn't add up to nine. I just sort of picked a number because I knew it was more than two and figured it was less then ten.
Also, also ... we could have had a movie that was Steve and Natasha working for Shield before everything went to shit. Of that we got... inrto mission on a boat.
I did this a bit with Age of Ultron in mind which helped get it up to nine actual movies, but most of it is just what's in CA:WS. Nine movies and one TV series is where I ended up .
OMFG, Chris, this is incredible!!! You always do such amazing, insightful work, and this one right here is one of them!!! I don't have time to read it now, but I will most definitely try my best to get to it as soon as possible! :D :D
I will say that for myself, personally? I very, very, very much always preferred the General Ross from the 2003 Hulk movie, with Eric Bana and Jennifer Connelly. I haven’t re-watched it in a good minute, but I felt that that version of General Ross actually, truly, deeply loved and cared for his daughter.
[snip]
I re-watched the 2008 reboot a few weeks ago and still to this day, I can’t sense that Ross truly loves his daughter or at least, truly wants to rekindle some kind of relationship with her where she understands and trusts him. It’s disgusting.
Do you have any thoughts on that?
While I --and this is 100% true-- cannot think of a single film he's in that I really like (2003 Hulk may be closest), I definitely love Sam Eliot's acting. His portrayal of General Ross in "Hulk" has got to be the most sympathetic I've seen the character and I totally agree that that Ross loved and cared for his daughter.
He had problems --not the least of which being that he couldn't look at Bruce without seeing his father and that intensely screwed up his judgement (in ways that meshed with an reinforced some bad parenting wrt Betty)-- but he generally came off as someone who was trying to deal with the situation as well as he could, rather than trying to exploit it, and a loving father.
Then in the next movie we get Betty's fiance pointing out, rightly, that (new) General Ross is a monster who doesn't care about his own daughter while the giant green thing seems intent on keeping her safe at great risk to itself. Kind of stinks that we lost the complex General Ross who actually had something where his heart should be, but I totally liked Betty's choice of fiance.
Liked her choice personality-wise, at least. We didn't really need another white dude. If it turned out in a later movie that fiance was actually a black woman who had shape-shifted into the form of a white dude or something for a while but was done with that and will be played by a black woman forever more I'd be completely fine with that. Of course that would require Betty to show up again, and they seem intent on forgetting about her.
Oh, wow! Not a single film of Sam Eliot's?! Not one? :O
(Ehhh, I couldn't say something like that myself-unfortunately, I'm not a big enough movie buff to say so, haha!)
And yeah-that Ross from the 2003 film was pretty good, pretty well-done. The one from 2008, played by William Hurt, is a sickeningly high-Machiavellian exploiter with no care for human rights, life, & dignity. I wouldn't be surprised if he sees himself as a good guy and, not just that, but the hero of the story. Ick. Ugh.
Bwuahahahahahaha on Betty's fiance actually being a shape-shifting black woman! 'Tis fascinating! But, see...black women and women of color in general don't exist, Chris! It's always either white women or men of color.
Remember: you're talking to a unicorn right now. ;)
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mmmag
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Date: 2016-05-20 07:01 pm (UTC)1 The movie we were promised at the end of the previous Captain America was Steve and Sam on a road trip to find Bucky with possible help from Natasha. This is especially sensible because Sam's job and vocation is helping soldiers who have had traumatic experiences which Bucky very much is. Where the fuck is that movie?
2 The final fight of this movie, which the villain's entire plan leads up to, hinges on Tony being an asshole, but that doesn't mean that Tony needed to have a huge role in the movie. He could have spent the movie following newly surfaced clues on his parents murder. Cut to him for like a minute at most as he gets one step closer and then, at the very end, his quest leads him to the same spot as Steve and Bucky.
3 This was two movies (which is an improvement over the last Captain America movie when they tried to cram in like nine) and neither of them was really a Captain America movie. The Avengers splitting up over the Fictional Country Accords is clearly an Avengers movie. Bucky being framed bringing the two sides of the split into conflict is actually the backdrop for a Black Panther movie in which T'Challa grows as a character and he first steps foot outside of Wakanda as the Black Panther.
4 Apparently only villains care about natives. Tony ends up thinking they need oversight because of an American in Sokovia, the oversight actually becomes a thing because of Wakandans in Nigeria. No one on the good side gave a crap about the Sokovians or the Nigerians. That seems to be the message.
5 This should have been morally complex. The leader of the accord side --who should have been Maria Hill, not Tony-- should have made the argument that cops without oversight are dangerous and scary things and justice requires people who can keep the enforcers in line. This is true and important because, for fuck's sake, the cops are out of control and the Avengers are cops on a grand scale. Steve should have made the "Yeah, but.." argument which he kind of did with "They could order us to do bad things" (see Captain America II in which the "good" guys and the bad guys both agree that a giant surveillance and assassination system is wonderful, but disagree on who should pick the targets) and "They could order us not to do good things" which, if they'd waited to get an "Ok" for Sokovia the first time then the [worse Nazis than the Nazis] would rule the world and if they'd waited the second time then the human race would be extinct.
In either case having to go through a normal chain of command would have ended life as we know it and possibly life in general. That's what superhero movies are about for fuck's sake. If the police were up to the task then Peter Parker could focus on his school work. If the regular allies were up to the task then Captain America wouldn't have been needed. Super-villains exist because without them superheroes would be dangerous vigilantes but with them they're necessary. They become even more necessary when the powers that be aren't outmatched but instead actively evil.
And on that note:
6 Doctor Doom. Marvel doesn't have the movie rights to The Fantastic Four so they can't use Doctor Doom in spite of him being their character, but things would have worked so much better if Steve could have just said, "Latveria." pause because that should be enough. Continuation for those who don't understand, "They'll never approve us intervening, but if we don't then Doctor Doom will be unstoppable before he sets foot into our jurisdiction." Or, failing that:
7 "117 countries." How many of those countries have committed genocide? How many of them have stood by and let genocide happen? There's Steve's "Order us to do bad things; order us not to do good things," argument. Hell, Steve may be Captain America, but his wartime service could have caused him to come into direct contact with the 442nd Infantry Regiment who might have mentioned what the US was doing to their families back home (and had been doing to them before they were allowed to join up.)
8 Bucky wasn't just framed; he was framed really badly. The Winter Solider doesn't blow shit up. He shoots people, he chokes people, he fights people one on one, but a car bomb? No. Before the previous Captain America movie no one, save Natasha, seriously believed he existed and that's simply not possible if he's the sort to do things as open as blowing up a UN summit.
Everyone should have known he was innocent with the possible exception of T'Challa who had very good reason to have less than perfect judgement right then.
In fact, the movie works best if the villain and the Accords side are working together. How did someone who's son was in the empty building Tony collapsed in Sakovia get alone time with Tony to tell Tony about her son when there's an entire crowd of people who know more about the building who would like to see him just as much? Why push the story that an enhanced human (Bucky) is responsible when the evidence is crap?
Because both the people behind the accords and the nominal villain want to bring down the Avengers. Ross wants them imprisoned (chasing down exceptional individuals is kind of his thing), Zemo wants them dead, but the early stages of both goals are identical and it's probable that neither side talked about their endgame.
9 Can I go on about how morally unbalanced this is?
Tony: I've come to realize that I can't be trusted not to do X, therefore there should be a law against X. All who oppose me in this endeavor are moral degenerates. If you'll excuse me I have to make sure that Vision knows Wanda is my slave, not my guest, and then I'm going to recruit a child soldier by threatening to out him to his mother-figure. This will involve me repeatedly pulling what he wants kept in the closet out of the closet so that there's no way you can miss the overtones.
Vision: I make sure Mr. Stark's slaves don't leave the property unless he allows them to. I see no moral problem with this.
Rhodey: I'm just following orders. (He's clearly the moral heart of the team since ... yeah.)
Natasha: I actually came out and said that I don't want to be on this side. The only reason I'm here is because "Team Evil" needs a token female character.
Peter: Look, I don't want to know who's right and who's wrong. I'm being blackmailed by a creepy guy who seems to want to have sex with the woman who raised me. I actually gave a speech in which I said that morally I agree with everything the other side stands for.
T'Challa: I'm here to murder someone, but don't worry, this is my pseudo-origin story so I'll learn to be a better person by the end of it and not murder the person who killed my father. My initial position on the Accords is that they should apply to others but as soon as I've got a vendetta, screw everything they say. That said, remember that I grow and change unlike the other people on this team.
While on the other side we have:
Steve: This will seriously harm our ability to do good things and YOU'RE TRYING TO KILL AN INNOCENT MAN. Also, no lawyer? What happened to due process?
Sam: I'm with Steve on this, every part of what he just said.
Wanda: I'm a human being, not an object. I saw Fury Road, damn it.
Clint: Wanda's a human being, not an object.
Scott: Is there any coffee? What day is it?
Not saying that Cap's team is composed of angels, but there's a clear right side here. Not the least of which because this whole thing is being overseen by...
10 "Ross" is a name that we might associate with, "Why the fuck isn't she in this movie?" but in the case of Civil War it's the other Ross. Her dad. The villain. Bruce/Hulk's villain. A movie about Ross interring enhanced people ought to be Bruce/Hulk's movie.
11 You know why this fucked up movie exists? After Iron Man III, a movie with so many good bits that it made the crap the movie was primarily composed of hurt even more than if it had just been only bad, RDJ wasn't contracted to do anything else but the remaining Avengers story (which will be split in half) and the people running the MCU wanted him in another movie because he draws bigger numbers in the US. Not that his movies make more money overall, it's just in the US where there's a notable difference.
So they wrote a movie that would so depend upon Tony and Iron Man that they could go to RDJ and say, "We've got this movie that we want to make --script's done, we're scouting locations-- but it will only work if you're in it. *puppy dog pout* Please?
They weren't even trying to make a good movie. They were trying to create a thing that required RDJ.
12 Tony's position basically boils down to: Hey, you know what? I've realized that I've been wrong all these years. But now that I've realized it I'm right and you're wrong. Everyone still has to do what I say.
He's the guy who always thinks he's right. Every time he realizes he was wrong before then ... hey, that just makes him even more right now because he's righter than he was back then.
13 You put Bucky, a traumatized soldier, and Sam, someone who works with traumatized solider, together and didn't make any use of that?
You put Bucky, someone who had is his mind fucked with, on the same side as Wanda, someone who can do impossible things with minds, and didn't have her at least try to help?
14 Vision can pick up the hammer of Thor because he's totally worthy, but he doesn't see the problem with "It's fine for you to leave to do work for us, but you're not actually a free person. You're our captive here. Deal with it"?
15 There are three black superheroes in this movie. They're all male.
In fact, Given that Wanda's been whitewashed ... is it impossible for to be a minority and a female in the hero biz?
---
Proposed better way:
Captain America 2 had a different name because Bucky was barely in that movie and the movie wouldn't have changed much if you took him out.
Third CA movie is Captain America: The Winter Soldier. Steve and Sam go out to find Bucky.
In Avengers: Civil War, the team fractures over the question of the Sokovia accords. Steve leads one faction, Hill leads the other. While they fight the movie ends with all of them teaming up to free the captured members of the Steve-side from Ross' secret prison where the inmates have no rights because whatever your position on superhero oversight, prisons with no human rights are bullshit.
The Black Panther -- T'Challa gets drawn into the middle of this fucked up feud when Bucky is framed for murdering his father. The movie has the two sides of the Avengers fighting each other again because of the flashpoint that is Bucky, but that's the backdrop for T'Challa's story.
Future movies: X years ago a super hero team was sent to prison for a crime they didn't commit. These people promptly escaped from maximum security prison. Today, still wanted by the government, they ... yeah, I'm not going to be able to work in the entire the A-Team opening monologue, but it seemed to fit.
Important point is this: future movies follow Captain America, Falcon, Black Widow (because she ought to be on that side), the Winter Soldier, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Antman (individually, and in groups) as outlaw heroes.
They do crime for great justice.
-
Probably wrote too much already.
no subject
Date: 2016-05-21 11:40 am (UTC)I'm just giving a pre-comment because I see you wrote a whole lot and I want to let you know that I will thoroughly respond to it soon. It's just that as of right now, I am struggling with the Migraine Wars and the Exhaustion Wars for several days straight and so I'm not exactly up to par to do anything but play Sims.
But I'll be back soon and will respond soon! Thanks again for the ultra-long comment and see you soon! :D
no subject
Date: 2016-05-22 03:27 pm (UTC)1. Yes, where the fuck was the movie that was a direct (or as direct as possible) sequel to Captain America: The Winter Soldier?! Although one thing: there’s an ugly, anti-black racist trend in fandom to make Sam the in-home therapist in the flavor of him being the Magical Negro that always takes care of the white characters and it’s…pretty ugly.
Then, you also have to put it into perspective: Bucky’s trauma consists of seventy years of torture, brainwashing, being forced to do things that he doesn’t want to do, and more torture. He is a man that has PTSD and memory problems out the wazoo and there are quite possibly a dozen or so trigger words still in his head.
Sam Wilson is a good, honorable man brimming with compassion and insightfulness and most-certainly he will eventually like and befriend Bucky, just like in the comics. But Sam Wilson is also, in the MCU, simply a VA counselor that helps your average Iraq, Afghanistan, and possibly, every now and then, the average Vietnam veteran. Bucky’s trauma and the needs and particularities that it entails…are way, way out of Sam’s league. And on top of that, you have the issue of boundaries when it comes to therapists/counselors not being their personal friends’ therapists/counselors.
But! I do think that there can be something for Sam helping to direct Bucky to someone who can help him. I do think that you can show Sam holding Bucky’s hand as they search for a good, suitable doctor that can help Bucky. Yep, yep.
2. Yeah, the whole of Tony’s presence in this fucking movie and the rest of this universe for that matter hinge on him acting a fool and an asshole. I personally still can’t get past the question of…what is Tony even doing here? Outside of, say, providing funds for the very best lawyers for Bucky off-screen? Like, the motivation for that ending fight scene felt beyond forced and contrived. I’ve never been nor will I ever be for the narrative of Bucky having been the one to kill Tony’s parents because it doesn’t make sense and, even more, because it runs the great risk of centralizing Tony in what should be Bucky’s story.
I mean, movie!Tony Stark has existed since 2008; the very first Iron Man movie came out in 2008. It is 2016 now and that means it has been a whopping eight years since Tony’s debut. It wasn’t really until the second Iron Man film where we saw Tony…supposedly get some closure from his father (…that little video where Howard says that Tony “is my greatest creation”…and yes, I have negative feelz about that in & of itself), and that should’ve been that. And of course, we hear and see next to nothing about his mother.
So now, over eight years later, if we, the audience, were supposed to care so much about Tony’s parents and believe that he had such a warm, close relationship with them as to become unhinged upon realizing they were murdered by Bucky, then it’s far too late by now. I mean, in the first ten minutes of the movie? We watched his mother kiss him goodbye…like she almost never kisses him, much less shows any kind of casual affection for him at all.
And yes, again, I’m still stuck at Tony, why in the fresh fuck are you even here in this movie?!
It didn’t work. It doesn’t work.
3. Ehhh? You felt Captain America: The Winter Soldier tried to cram in about nine movies? I actually love CATWS and I’m deeply curious about your interpretation of that. Would you care to elaborate? :O
4. …Yeah, I…kinda got a lot to say about that, too. But you just condensed it: apparently only villains care about natives. Huh.
5. This movie should’ve been morally complex for what it was, yes. But I was telling WingedBeast and a few other friends: A Civil War movie never should’ve happened in the first place. The Civil War event in the comics is one of those highly infamous events and for good reasons-the characterizations are terrible (especially if you love and are interested in Tony Stark (who acts like a fucking fascist the whole time) and Steve Rogers (who acts like a fucking anarchist the whole time)), the basic handling of the question of oversight, responsibility, etc. is horrifically not well-done. And it’s just in general a really, really bad comic book event.
The only moral complexity in this movie that I and a whole lot of other Marvel fans cared to see was the moral complexity of the [beginnings of] The Winter Soldier Trials. Prove to us, within the context of the movies, that Bucky Barnes is not an evil man, but the longest-serving POW ever known. Prove to us, also, that Bucky Barnes can and will step on the path of being worthy of the shield of Captain America. Prove to us that you can balance Bucky’s crushing guilt with the righteous anger and grief of his victims and their families.
Prove all of that to us. Show all of that to us. That’s what the fuck we wanted. And, again, Tony Stark should have absolutely nothing to do with that outside of providing the very best lawyers for Bucky.
6. Ohhh, that would’ve worked! And I forgot that Marvel doesn’t have the rights to Fantastic 4 and so they don’t have the right to Doctor Doom. Huh. :O
7. True that. Preach. All of the countries that either had a direct hand in genocide or just stood by and let it happen…and all of the times that genocide still goes on to this very day.
Also, as far as Steve’s wartime service during WWII as Captain America? That reminds me of one thing that I really, really, really do not like about CATWS: one of the basic premises of that movie as far as Steve’s character is that it’s no longer easy for him to figure out what to do, what’s right, what direction to follow because what’s right and what’s wrong is so blurry. Who to trust and who not to trust is not clear-cut and it’s, in fact, quite dangerous to slip and trust the wrong person and/or mistrust someone that actually can be trusted.
This gives the ugly, unfortunate implication that it was simple for Steve to be Captain America…back in the 40s. And that’s…one on part, that shouldn’t be Steve Rogers as a character and on another part, that’s totally a disgustingly, fetishizing, white-washing, privileged view of the past. The 1940s (and the 30s, and the 20s…) was fucking ugly. You still had lynchings of African Americans. Segregation. Japanese internment camps. Homophobic hate crimes. Anti-Semitism (oh, hai thar, Greatest Country In The World callously denying whole boatloads of European Jewish refugees!). The list goes on and on and on.
So for Steve…it should’ve been difficult and blurry to be Captain America from the very beginning. His second movie shouldn’t have been the first time he really, really started questioning things, really started feeling deeply discomfited and resentful of things. No, just...god, no.
8. This. This. That, and that. Yeah.
Although, I will say about the mother cornering Tony after Tony handing out all of those Wealthy Affluent White Man Guilt College Grants? The mother was black and one of the ugly things about this movie that I haven’t seen called out elsewhere is the egregious use of black bodies to prop up the white character’s guilt. It’s not just that black mother’s black child dying in that building. It’s also how Wanda accidentally blows up a building in Lagos…full of black people. And there’s a shot or two of a close-up of a dead black person, their eyes staring endlessly at the camera and it’s just…
Stop using the pain and death of black people to prop up and propel the stories of your white characters, Hollywood. Stop it.
9. OMFG!!!! Chris, I have absolutely loved your dialogue rewrites/re-imaginings ever since the olden days when we would talk about Twilight in Ana’s comments sections! They have always made me laugh out loud, if not put a bright, bright smile on my face for the rest of the day. And on top of being hilarious, they also wonderfully, dryly prove the point of how the source material is wildly problematic. I just love it. I do. –heart eyes & chin hands-
And this one just made me laugh out loud so, so much! Yes, yes, yes to it!!
10. Oh yes: Dr. Betty Ross has been written out of the movie universe entirely. She’s a white woman love interest that doesn’t interest me all that much just for that reason alone, but it’s quite infuriating because she could bring so, so much to the plots.
And you think Ross is a villain, too?! I always got the impression that the movies and, perhaps, the comics, wanted him to be portrayed and interpreted as some kind of morally-grey figure, a desperate man with a whole lot of power that’s just trying to do the right thing by any means necessary. Like, the source material is trying to sell us a character that’s heavy on the Machiavellian, but can somehow still be sympathized with. But of course, it does not work for me, you, and a whole lot of the rest of the audience.
I will say that for myself, personally? I very, very, very much always preferred the General Ross from the 2003 Hulk movie, with Eric Bana and Jennifer Connelly. I haven’t re-watched it in a good minute, but I felt that that version of General Ross actually, truly, deeply loved and cared for his daughter. I loved the flashback of child!Betty eating ice cream with her father in a diner, though they’re interrupted by military officials. I love that he demands of Betty, “What do you want me to do?!” and the narrative allows Betty to yell back, “I want you to help [Bruce]!” I love that, at the end, Ross truly apologizes to Betty for everything and, though I don’t remember Betty’s exact response, it sounded like she wasn’t quite ready to forgive him, much less start rebuilding their relationship.
Just about none of that complex pain was shown in the 2008 reboot with the new General Ross and Betty. Ross was and still is just a power-hungry, callous, reckless asshole that truly doesn’t care about hurting and/or killing even his own daughter to get unfettered access to Bruce Banner’s body. I re-watched the 2008 reboot a few weeks ago and still to this day, I can’t sense that Ross truly loves his daughter or at least, truly wants to rekindle some kind of relationship with her where she understands and trusts him. It’s disgusting.
Do you have any thoughts on that?
11. Speaking of the shitty Iron Man 3? My favorite part? When Happy got fatally injured because of the villains and Tony was angry? He went and outed his personal home address in a challenge to those villains on an international platform and he did it solely out of anger…which is a hallmark character trait of movie!Tony Stark. He gets angry, he lashes out without a care for how this will hurt other people.
And then of course, a certain lady named Pepper lives in that house, too. He comes home after issuing that challenge, she drops their bags in front of him and states that they are going to bounce and bounce yesterday. And then he tells her, “I can’t protect you out there!”
…But you can protect here in the house of which you just gave away your address to. Because you’re angry. Because that’s logical. Because that’s smart. Because you’re a genius.
Hahaha…hah…hah.
Also, I know a lot of people are saying that it was the MCU guys that came to RDJ to centralize him in Captain America’s movie? But I personally call bullshit-RDJ is a fucking notorious contract shark. I bet he totally pushed and shoved his sorry ass all the way to the front yet again for sure.
12. Yep. Exactly. Like…how many times does the MCU want us to watch this wealthy, powerful white man that is supposedly a genius…realize that he’s wrong and then go to absurd, destructive lengths to correct that wrong and end up actually making a bigger mess than before? If you watch all of the movies he’s been in, you can see just how formulaic it is (I was talking about this with Geyahi in another comment thread on this post) and it’s nothing but status quo. I mean, if I want to watch MCU!Tony Stark do this over and over again, I’d just turn on the news.
13. I reiterate my point on #1. :D
14. …Aww shit, I forgot that Vision can apparently lift the hammer! Excellent point!!!
15. Psst…Chris. Doncha know that we black women don’t actually exist? It’s always either men of color or white women and so, yes indeed, it is impossible for a character to be both of color and a woman. Why, you’re talking to a mystical unicorn right now. ;)
Ohhh, I very, very much enjoy your better proposal!
And no, you didn’t write too much at all! Again, I thank you so much for dropping in to comment, Chris! Thank you, thank you! :D
no subject
Date: 2016-05-23 02:26 am (UTC)3. Ehhh? You felt Captain America: The Winter Soldier tried to cram in about nine movies? I actually love CATWS and I’m deeply curious about your interpretation of that. Would you care to elaborate? :O
You could take Bucky out of the movie with his name on it without changing much of anything that happens in the movie. On the other hand, his return should be enough to be a movie in itself. So that's one movie right there. The one the title promises but doesn't really deliver:
The Winter Solider shows up, everyone thinks Steve and Natasha are loopy for believing this and thus doesn't provide them with aid, and entire movie just about dealing with brainwashed Bucky.
Shield (not just the Hydra infiltrators) had gone way too far. Their evil plot needed to be stopped. Putting Hydra into the equation is a complication that a movie isn't long enough to deal with. Just have the horrible project (was it called "Project Insight" or something?) and our heroes rebelling to stop it.
Two movies.
An attempted coup against Nick Fury, which would make sense in the wake of the previous, could be a movie in itself. More has been made with less. And it would be interesting because the coupsters wouldn't be wrong that Fury had fucked up, but a violent coup usually isn't the way to go about it.
Hydra still existing, if they were going to run with that, should have been centered as something to deal with as opposed to, "We have to stop this horrible thing, and Robert Redford works for Hydra but why should we care since the non-Hydra people approved of this plan too?" So focus on that and we're at, I think, four now.
Zola's preserved consciousness was there for an exposition dump when it honestly deserves more and different. In the comics I don't know, but in the MCU Zola was, at best, disinterested in Hydra. He just wanted a place where he could conduct reality-bending science-advancing experiments, perhaps in ways that violated all human rights.
If you're going to have him then he should be the main villain of a non-Hydra plot that involves pushing the boundaries of science-magic and trampling the boundaries of ethics with the heroes unable to locate the villain behind everything for most of the movie because he's a net-ghost.
Next, the Hydra "algorithm" was Big Brother in the internet age an honestly probably deserved an entire multiple season TV series where people are fighting against, basically, the internet personified that happens to hold to Nazi ideals. Think Ultron without the the idiot ball, emotional instability, or desire to have a body.
This is separate from a Hydra movie itself because the "algorithm" presents a wholly different threat than human infiltrators.
Shield at war with itself apart from and beside the revelation of Hydra still existing (which is as much political as face punching) could have carried an entire series of movies. It got, basically, one scene in a control room.
And, no, that doesn't add up to nine. I just sort of picked a number because I knew it was more than two and figured it was less then ten.
Also, also ... we could have had a movie that was Steve and Natasha working for Shield before everything went to shit. Of that we got... inrto mission on a boat.
no subject
Date: 2016-05-23 10:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-05-24 02:07 pm (UTC)I did this a bit with Age of Ultron in mind which helped get it up to nine actual movies, but most of it is just what's in CA:WS. Nine movies and one TV series is where I ended up .
no subject
Date: 2016-05-24 08:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-05-26 10:40 pm (UTC)[snip]
I re-watched the 2008 reboot a few weeks ago and still to this day, I can’t sense that Ross truly loves his daughter or at least, truly wants to rekindle some kind of relationship with her where she understands and trusts him. It’s disgusting.
Do you have any thoughts on that?
While I --and this is 100% true-- cannot think of a single film he's in that I really like (2003 Hulk may be closest), I definitely love Sam Eliot's acting. His portrayal of General Ross in "Hulk" has got to be the most sympathetic I've seen the character and I totally agree that that Ross loved and cared for his daughter.
He had problems --not the least of which being that he couldn't look at Bruce without seeing his father and that intensely screwed up his judgement (in ways that meshed with an reinforced some bad parenting wrt Betty)-- but he generally came off as someone who was trying to deal with the situation as well as he could, rather than trying to exploit it, and a loving father.
Then in the next movie we get Betty's fiance pointing out, rightly, that (new) General Ross is a monster who doesn't care about his own daughter while the giant green thing seems intent on keeping her safe at great risk to itself. Kind of stinks that we lost the complex General Ross who actually had something where his heart should be, but I totally liked Betty's choice of fiance.
Liked her choice personality-wise, at least. We didn't really need another white dude. If it turned out in a later movie that fiance was actually a black woman who had shape-shifted into the form of a white dude or something for a while but was done with that and will be played by a black woman forever more I'd be completely fine with that. Of course that would require Betty to show up again, and they seem intent on forgetting about her.
no subject
Date: 2016-05-27 11:21 pm (UTC)(Ehhh, I couldn't say something like that myself-unfortunately, I'm not a big enough movie buff to say so, haha!)
And yeah-that Ross from the 2003 film was pretty good, pretty well-done. The one from 2008, played by William Hurt, is a sickeningly high-Machiavellian exploiter with no care for human rights, life, & dignity. I wouldn't be surprised if he sees himself as a good guy and, not just that, but the hero of the story. Ick. Ugh.
Bwuahahahahahaha on Betty's fiance actually being a shape-shifting black woman! 'Tis fascinating! But, see...black women and women of color in general don't exist, Chris! It's always either white women or men of color.
Remember: you're talking to a unicorn right now. ;)
no subject
Date: 2016-05-28 02:38 am (UTC)